THE WHOLE HOMOSEXUALITY ISSUE II
(Sunday) This is a response to some of the comments that Vera has left in my comment boxes and the Covnet list.

VERA: Sorry, this is an agree to disagree issue for me.

BRAD: You can be sorry. But you're still wrong. :-) And that is not just my opinion but it is the stated opinion of the church -- and has been for 2,000 years.

We've got folk who are otherwise faithful people in our churches who do not believe in the bodily resurrection, the divinity of Christ, or the Virgin birth. And while we're glad to have them in our family these are not issues upon which we "agree to disagree". In other words, just because someone in our church holds a particular perspective that doesn't mean that we accept that perspective as legitimate. Even if there is a group of people holding a perspective that doesn't make it legitimate. And just because we don't spend a lot of time and energy trying to hunt down heterodox belief or behavior doesn't mean that we are agreeing to disagree. The same is true with this issue.

VERA: And for many others who I know personally who attend the Covenant who were not represented at that meeting.

BRAD: Now, that's not really a fair statement. Every church and every perspective in the church had the opportunity for representation. There were people who spoke from a perspective similar to yours. And while the church isn't about to banish them (no one is even keeping a list!) the perspective is clearly out of step with where the Covenant is at and where the church has historically been. The church reaffirmed what it has previously stated.

VERA: I cannot speak for them, I will speak only for myself here. But I think it is important for you to know that I am not alone in my thinking on this issue.

BRAD: I know you're not alone because I get more than my fair share of letters and email -- sometimes oozing anger and hate (I'm not implying that about you). I've been threatened and called names. People suggest that I'm hateful. They tell me I know nothing about the Bible or modern psychological thinking. They imply that I don't really care about people. They tell me that I live under a rock and if I really knew some gays I wouldn't be this way.

And this isn't even an issue that is high on my agenda! I guess it just comes with being in denominational leadership. I've been surprised. At this point there isn't much more that will shock me. Fortunately I have fairly thick skin -- formed through 20 years of pastoral ministry.

VERA: I very much question the biblical references to this issue, just as I questioned the role of women in the church as depicted in the Bible.

BRAD: Robert Cagnon does a good job in dealing with the analogy of women in ministry
http://www.robgagnon.net/articles/homoTheologyMattersArticle.htm

This isn't at all parallel to the issue of women in pastoral ministry where there is strong direct biblical scholarship indicating that women can serve in leadership. The issue has been, how do we balance that with a few passages that have been construed in such a way to suggest that women cannot serve in pastoral leadership? But there is absolutely no biblical evidence to suggest that homosexuality is acceptable in any context -- not one single passage.

There is lots of evidence to the contrary. It is one of the items from the OT levitical code that is reiterated in the New Testament.

There is a short Cagnon article which pretty well summarizes the issue from a biblical and theological perspective. http://www.robgagnon.net/ZenitInterview.htm

BTW, Cagnon teaches at a mainline protestant seminary. He isn't what people would typically call an evangelical and he is certainly not a fundamentalist.

VERA: Obviously, this issue was interpreted differently by the Covenant when they voted to ordain women.

BRAD: The Covenant has ordained women from early on (at least as early as the 1920's -- perhaps earlier). We have never had a rule prohibiting the ordination of women. When we voted in 1976 we simply stated that we're not going to make any rules prohibiting the ordination of women. But, again, this issue has nothing to do with the ordination of women and isn't even a parallel issue.

VERA: There are many references in the Bible that we have chosen to interpret differently than other denominations.

BRAD: Not really. We're not as unique as some people like to state. We have a unique history and ethos but we are well within the mainstream of historical biblical apostolic Nicean Christianity. I'm not sure that there is really an original idea among us. :-)

VERA: For example, Brad, you say that "In regard to the Covenant's "agree to disagree" principle -- that agreement is only in certain areas where faithful Christians have historically had differences of practice..." Are you saying that Catholics are not faithful Christians in your estimation because only men can become priests and those men must remain celibate?

BRAD: I'm not saying or implying that. But I'm missing your point. Perhaps you could flesh this out a bit for me.

VERA: If so, this is an argument full of holes, especially when you read the biblical references that are supposed to be about "homosexuality" in the Bible. We could argue that it says "men lying with..." but not "women lying with women" so there should be differences in respect to gender on this issue, if we wanted to be completely technical.

BRAD: Again, I'm missing the point. I'm just a little dense.

VERA: Let's examine some other issues brought up along with that passage in Leviticus that has been used so much for arguments sake. God also decrees through Moses a few other things (a long list, as you know):
Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

BRAD: Yes, and I've noted that the prohibition regarding homosexual is an issue which is carried over from the OT laws into the NT. The OT prohibition against homosexual practice is bigger than just some rules but it has to do with the way that we were created -- as male and female.

VERA: In the same book, there are rules about rituals after childbirth, skin diseases, and the like. Some things on this list have held up to scrutiny because there are reasons related to emotional or physical health that make them valid in today's society. Others, as we read them today, we consider to be ridiculous. We point to them as beliefs anchored in a lack of good information or the cultural ignorance of those times.

If you have not reached out to and befriended a committed homosexual couple, perhaps you need to. Judge not what you do not know of.

BRAD: I'm am in the thick of it. I don't know how it is that people think that because I read the Bible as condemning homosexual behavior that I don't know, like, or relate well to homosexual people. But even if I were not involved there are lots of things that I judge as unacceptable without having direct knowledge or involvement. And I suspect the same could be said of most of us. 1 Cor. 2:15 says, "The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one." That is, we all, by virtue of our life in Christ, are in the process of fine tuning our crap detectors. In a sense we are called to be judgmental! Jesus was!

But the radical thing about Jesus is that he sat down and ate with the sinners and he loved them and had compassion on them. But this didn't mean that he let them off the hook for their sin. "Go and sin no more..."

VERA: Do not hide behind your ignorance.

BRAD: Are you referring to me personally? Are you saying that I am ignorant about people struggling with this issue?

VERA: This also rests upon the belief that homosexuality is predetermined or a choice. I happen to believe, after having many professional and personal friendships with homosexuals, that this issue is very clear to me as predetermination.

BRAD: Predetermination? Like in a Calvinistic way? Predetermination is different than the concept of orientation.

VERA: One of my friends I have known since we were small children. (I know her whole family.) Do I believe she made a casual choice to live her life this way? Absolutely not. This was not a casual choice, nor driven by a desire to live promiscuously (she has never been). She has been in a committed relationship since she was 21. She is now 43. If she and her partner could have married years ago, they would have. This is in contrast to her oldest brother who has been divorced and married three times within! a Protestant denomination.

BRAD: Even if sexual orientation is innate that does not mean that we need to act on all our sexual impulses. Certainly men have to throttle their sexual impulses when it comes to women. We seem to be wired to want to mate with all kinds of females. We have to learn to set those desires aside.

There is some evidence that some people are predisposed to alcohol abuse. Others are predisposed to violence or dishonesty. Do we bless those activities and say, well that's just the way they are wired? If indeed there is a predisposition toward homosexual behavior the response is analogous to how we deal with other forms of deviancy.

Divorce is always a tragedy and it is clearly not God's design. We do not approve of divorce. However, to throw divorce into this discussion is a red herring.

VERA: If the Covenant does not wish to ordain or marry homosexuals, there is nothing I can do about that on my own. But to imply that we should turn people out of church, to brand them sinners and insist that they break off a committed relationship and change to suit us, is wrong.

BRAD: We are not turning people out. We are simply gently challenging them to "go and sin no more" -- the same as we would do with someone struggling with sinful heterosexual behaviors, or greed, or racism, or dishonesty. It's not about branding anyone. We aren't even the ones who have brought up the issue of homosexuality. We are simply responding to the pressures that modern culture has been placing on us.

And this isn't about pleasing us -- but about what pleases God. If it were left up to me personally I would just say live and let live (I grew up in the 60's and 70's in California!) Frankly, I would be totally happy to say that as long as you don't hurt anyone else what you do in private is your own business. I'd like that a lot. But the word of God compels us differently -- at least if we take it and our responsibility to accurately reflect it seriously.

VERA: As has been said before, "you can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all of the same people you do."

BRAD: I don't hate anyone. To disagree isn't the same as hate. To tell someone the truth can be the most loving thing a person could do.

VERA: Think about it.

BRAD: Okay. I will. I'm not sure I have the luxury of not thinking about this issue.
:-)